This is me rambling on... I added VFT pictures but they aren't too relevant to the discussion. Typed quickly, proofread little.
 |
| Venus flytraps with blooms. Other plants as well. Obtained at a plant sell at Tower Hill Botanical Garden in 2014 |
I study endangered plants more so than I do carnivorous
plants, yet blend the two when possible. More protections may appear to be a
good idea. Additional regulations can succeed in aiding species protection if
they are enforced. If regulations are not enforced, then any amount of
regulations will not help protect the species.
 |
| This image was used for a button. I obtained permission from the button creator/photographer. |
Listing a plant on the endangered species list provides
protections through:
1. Plants cannot be handled on federal property.
2. Plants movement across state lines and the U.S. boarder is greatly limited.
 |
| Venus flytraps on display at the 2016 International Carnivorous Plant Society meeting at Kew Gardens, England, United Kingdom. |
Venus flytrap, abbreviated as VFT, is found within the
Carolinas, 2 states. I have read North Carolina has protections that has led to
punishment; I am not sure about South Carolina (yet that reminds me I had the
opportunity to buy cobras and Nile crocodiles in South Carolina, legally sold
in the state, so I joke that place is lawless).
 |
| Another picture of Venus flytraps and other carnivorous plants on display at the 2016 International Carnivorous Plant Society meeting at Kew Gardens, England, United Kingdom. |
If Listed Part 1/3:
If VFT are placed on the endangered species list, then
plants on federal property will be more protected. Whenever the federal land
wants to put a building in place, they will survey for the VFT, the listed
species, and take mitigation to protect and not destroy the plants to the best
of their abilities. If people want to collect the plants from the federal property,
they will have to apply for a permit, which is extremely challenging and highly
discouraged, unless you work for the service or are contracted (even if not
apparently appearing to be contracted) to study them such as a university
researcher. Yet there are already some laws in place that outlaw trespassing on
federal lands. Often you cannot collect plant material from federal refuges or
national parks. Another example, lands of federal prisons, you wouldn’t want to
trespass on (I don’t know the exact laws for these lands) but they have
protections and you can’t trespass, could be shot. If one of these federal
properties has a large amount of land that VFT is growing, then the federal
government may take extra precautions to monitor to check no one is walking
onto the land and taking the plants, if they were to be listed. Yet funds are
limited and VFT won’t be a priority because they aren’t as rare as other
plants, unless it is through social demand (media, environment groups encourage
the masses to care; so in the spotlight the feds will do something to show they
try since they are getting a lot of coverage).
 |
| Carnivorous plants including Venus flytraps at Botanischer Garten München-Nymphenburg 2016 |
If Listed Part 2/3:
Movement of VFT across boarders will be regulated. VFT are
already CITES regulated, due to public demand (good job). That means special
documents are often taken to move these plants between countries. From the U.S.
it is challenging to do such a task even though it is possible, good luck
getting the documents because it will not be easy. Seeds aren’t so much
regulated. What has CITES done for the VFT and America? Trade of VFT wasn’t
regulated before CITES, after it could be monitored. VFT were exported out of
the USA because we had them all. Then they were placed on CITES. A portion of
VFT were documented to go to the Netherlands. In the Netherlands nurseries
produced MILLIONS of plants and are selling them all over the world. Get this,
one of their biggest buyers is the USA. So the USA out-sourced another job;
that being growing VFT. Also the only place to export VFT from the USA is
Wilmington, the HQ of the natural range of VFT, this regulation is already in
place without endangered species listing.
 |
| Venus flytraps at the Aeroponic Garden - O'Hare International Airport - Chicago Department of Aviation 2016 |
Have you ever seen VFT for sale in a store? After species
listing, this will be discontinued. The Fish & Wildlife Service does not
make special rules for special plants, rather they wouldn’t list them (because
they don’t have the time and resources to do so; and no one cares about plants
and this is documented well for plants vs animals in funding allocation). Since
species are now listed, they cannot move across state lines in commercial
activity. The USA nursery distributor for Walmart for example, won’t be able to
ship plants to stores for sale for $5.00 (a good price I bought mine for at the
Walmart). A special permit will be required to sale these plants across state
lines. This is rarely done, is highly discouraged, and won’t be allowed in most
cases. I have applied for such permits to evaluate the system, good luck
getting those permits. So VFT sale will be reduced. That is for within the US.
Outside of the USA, no plants will ever be exported unless it is a small sample
to a university or a herbarium specimen. No federally US endangered listed
plant has even been imported back to the USA (well since 1994, I couldn’t find
documents for earlier, and I searched thousands of documents). The hundreds of
thousands of VFT plants being sold to the US from the Netherlands, stops
completely. You won’t find them in stores. VFT will be taken from children’s
education. Few people care about plants, and if you take the VFT away, the end
results is even fewer people caring about plants.
 |
| Venus flytraps at the 2016 Carnivorous Plant Show of the New England Carnivorous Plant Society |
If Listed Part 3/3:
If listed, what about plants within the boarders, not
leaving the Carolinas? Well within the state, any private land owner can pull
up VFT, boil the plants, bath in the plants, eat them, etc. They have no
federal protection within the state. North Carolina would probably put VFT
instantly onto a state endangered plant list, so they would have some
protections, this is probably done already but I am not familiar with those
laws. The private land owners may still be able to eat VFT salad if they pull
the plants from their yard. I don’t know about South Carolina. So within the
state, they are not too protected any more due to federal listing. Note: if a
bald eagle nests in a tree on a private land owners land, then you can’t get
within so close to that tree. Yet if VFT were put on the endangered species
list, homeowners could weed them from their okra garden. Plants are completely
different than animals, and bald eagles aren’t endangered.
 |
| Another picture of Venus flytraps at the 2016 Carnivorous Plant Show of the New England Carnivorous Plant Society |
What do you want?
Although it seems like a good idea to list the plants on the
endangered species list, is that what you want?
Overall regulations are useless without enforcement. Already
listed plants are destroyed, stolen, and sold across state lines probably
often. Regulations exist, yet enforcement doesn’t happen. This is because of
understaffing and it is not a priority for law enforcement. Now don’t get mad
at the law enforcement for being lazy, there are some logical reasons why they
can’t do more. North Carolina passed stricter regulations on VFT, then they
actually busted a guy for it?! That is how you get protection. You want to help
protect VFT, perhaps donate money to that police precinct with a note saying
please use to patrol for and bust VFT poaches and put them in jail. You go to
the state level. Pass harsher punishments for trespassing in order to steal VFT
from native habitat. The states decide the fate of plant species within them.
Do you live in those states? If no, then you have to respect another state’s
decision. Remember states have different laws such as vehicle inspections,
being able to vote from prison, buying alcohol, etc. It is up to people who
care.
I love seeing this petition because people care for plants
for once. Yes change can happen, but learn what change is needed to make what
you want to happen, happen.
 |
| Venus flytraps beside a small Cephalotus follicularis |
Removal from the
Endangered Species List
Plants are placed onto the endangered species list. A
recovery plan is developed for the plant with recovery objectives. Often a
number of self-sustaining populations must persist for the plant in order to be
removed from the population. A high number I will make up is 50, I’ve seen much
less. How many areas of natural VFT populations are left? Probably more than
50. I have heard of people planting plants in swamps or ditches in Georgia and
Florida. The plants grow and are now introduced populations, for the good or
bad whatever. The point is, populations can be easily established. The goals
toward EPS recovery would be met quickly, plants removed. In fact VFT probably
doesn’t meet the criteria now to be considered for listing. Yes they are
threatened by poachers in the wild and habitat destruction. A lot of plants
more deserving are as well, and they are close to extinction.
People don’t care about plants. You do, I do, but most
people do not. The VFT is a flagship species, a species many know, love, and
care about in a world where animals get all the attention. There are ways to
protect these plants. My opinion: placing VFT on the endangered species list is
a waste, if not shooting ourselves in the foot to protect other plants.
This does get a good decision going. If more people can tell
me some opinions or state some facts I may be unaware about. If demanded I can
include citations for the materials I mentioned above, but I just wrote my
quick long opinion to get in out there.
 |
| Venus flytraps growing at a home in Georgia. |
What do we want for
Venus Flytrap Protections? Examples for Discussion.
1. A local pulls his vehicle off the side of the highway, then starts pulling up VFT plants that are growing in a ditch. He doesn’t own the property. He then gets into his car and drives home. He sells plants or he may just plant them in his bog garden. He could have collected 1 plant, he could have cleared the areas of 5000 plants.
2. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state of the art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local pulls his vehicle off to the job site. He pulls VFT plants up. He then goes back home. He sells the plants. Or he may plant the plants in his bog garden. Or he may donate the plants to the botanical garden or native plant society.
3. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state of the art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local native plant society is notified. They request permission from the land owners to perform a plant rescue. Request is granted. This takes time but they get a chance to rescue the plants because they are well coordinated and quick to react. If they are slow, well the bulldozers get to the site first.
4. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state-of-the-art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local or local native plant society is notified. They request permission from the land owners to perform a plant rescue. Request is granted. The state has a law that states “protected plants taken from the land must be granted the permission from state officials” (such a law in the State of Georgia). The local contacts the State, he gets the permission to gathers the plants. Or the local contacts the state and the state ignore the local or too much time and the bulldozers get to the site first. Or the local contacts the State, the State then contacts the local plant organization or university, who then wish to get involved and they contact the land owner as well which a roll of the dice the land owner could agree or the land owner could say I’ve had enough of you plant wackos stay off, then bulldozers come, or he could say sure go ahead. Or the local native plant society gets the permissions everything works fine, the plant society collects the plants and replants them within a protected area where the plants will grow for the next 100 years, with or without consideration of the first local. (I mention so many options to show how a single person and a group add different factors, how including more hands into the pot can complicate matters, and how success and failure can come and go easily).
5. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state-of-the-art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local or local native plant society is notified. They notify the state officials. The state confirms the existence of the plants and informs the land owner state law prevents you from destroying these plants, you cannot build. The gas station pushes for a legal case to build anyway. The building is not granted in the case, the station is not built, and the economy of the local town does not grow by one gas station. OR the case is granted, the gas station is built with OR without mitigation from any entity.
2. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state of the art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local pulls his vehicle off to the job site. He pulls VFT plants up. He then goes back home. He sells the plants. Or he may plant the plants in his bog garden. Or he may donate the plants to the botanical garden or native plant society.
3. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state of the art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local native plant society is notified. They request permission from the land owners to perform a plant rescue. Request is granted. This takes time but they get a chance to rescue the plants because they are well coordinated and quick to react. If they are slow, well the bulldozers get to the site first.
4. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state-of-the-art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local or local native plant society is notified. They request permission from the land owners to perform a plant rescue. Request is granted. The state has a law that states “protected plants taken from the land must be granted the permission from state officials” (such a law in the State of Georgia). The local contacts the State, he gets the permission to gathers the plants. Or the local contacts the state and the state ignore the local or too much time and the bulldozers get to the site first. Or the local contacts the State, the State then contacts the local plant organization or university, who then wish to get involved and they contact the land owner as well which a roll of the dice the land owner could agree or the land owner could say I’ve had enough of you plant wackos stay off, then bulldozers come, or he could say sure go ahead. Or the local native plant society gets the permissions everything works fine, the plant society collects the plants and replants them within a protected area where the plants will grow for the next 100 years, with or without consideration of the first local. (I mention so many options to show how a single person and a group add different factors, how including more hands into the pot can complicate matters, and how success and failure can come and go easily).
5. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bulldozers are on the way. A state-of-the-art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. A local or local native plant society is notified. They notify the state officials. The state confirms the existence of the plants and informs the land owner state law prevents you from destroying these plants, you cannot build. The gas station pushes for a legal case to build anyway. The building is not granted in the case, the station is not built, and the economy of the local town does not grow by one gas station. OR the case is granted, the gas station is built with OR without mitigation from any entity.
So much to think about. I provide these ideas to get people
thinking what is happening. Note in every one of the above solutions, federal
laws don’t really apply, so listing on the Endangered Species List won’t help
here.
So much to think about. I provide these ideas to get people
thinking what is happening. Note in every one of the above solutions, federal
laws don’t really apply, so listing on the Endangered Species List won’t help
here.
6. A new gas station is going to be built on a piece of land where VFT plants are growing. Bull dozers are on the way. A state-of-the-art parking lot will also be built for customer convenience. Although now put on the endangered species list, state law allows the land owner to do whatever he wants on his own land as is the case for the federal law. An out of state entity (could even be a nursery, could be hippies) is notified. They go on site, collect the plants, and then leave the state. This has violated the Lacey Act, the Endangered Species Act, possibly state laws as well. Although the plants are saved as the gas station is now built, how many years of prison should the people who gathered the plant get? How much should the fine be to those law breakers? I have been told a quote by 3 different law enforcement officials of the federal agency in charge: fine up to $10,000.00 dollars.
I don’t know the right solution. Working with endangered
plants, I don’t like the idea of VFT being put on the endangered species list.
That to me is the wrong solution. I have never seen VFT in the wild. I have
only seen them in stores. I bought some from stores. I enjoy the plants. What I
type here are ideas. Given a chance to vote on the listing of Venus Flytrap as
a plant for listing on the endangered species act, I would vote no.
 |
| 1st place winner in the Venus flytraps category at the 2016 Carnivorous Plant Show of the New England Carnivorous Plant Society. Best display of the plants I have seen. Even I have to admit my plants are nothing compared to this set up. |
Reading the Petition
I wonder who came up with the idea of the petition? I looked
at the petition letter. I am not sure about the 42 populations. He needs to
provide citations to have a legitimate claim. There are VFT populations in
Florida and Georgia and perhaps other places. Are those included in the 42 statistic?
Because that is important. He mentions some have protections, they need to be
listed.
The IUCN is a good indicator and they do a nice job, but can
be questionable. I’ve met some of the people that work with the IUCN. Some have
doctorate degrees. Others don’t. The IUCN ranking doesn’t have status, but the
facts and citations to IUCN ranking could be very useful and should be
provided.
Included the species was considered for listing in 1993?
Well then you have done all you can. This petition is repetitive. In a best
case scenario, I could see this petition causing someone to go collect some
population data on the plants, which may already exist.
He mentions the over-exploitation by collecting. Yes there
are cases. This goes back to enforcement above. Also federal protection
wouldn’t trigger unless plant cross state lines. I think this would follow
under state jurisdiction. Again states would have to enforce the protection, so
why not petition the state, and to petition the state it helps to be a resident
of the state because why would the state increase taxes for enforcement because
people in the rest of the United States cared but the locals don’t want to pay
the taxes. That would lead to no enforcement.
The certification program is a good idea, I like this one
also. It has been suggested in other cases. Yet no funding and no agency will
do it. The federal side is underfunded already. This isn’t a priority. This
could also greatly hurt the hobbyist that has been growing VFTs with his local
plant friends. If you took every person in the United States that has a VFT,
you would have a lot of people. Certification program would be busy. You know
what, it would be easy to cheat the system too. Do a model, certify your
friends sources in a personal database, then provide your results from over the
years.
Federal protection would not provide protection within the
state on developing land. As I mention above, on federal land it would, but
development wouldn’t be on federal land and that isn’t the threat. Listing could
trigger state protections, but those are state laws and you should first
petition the state, and show you have tried to petition the state. Before
federal listing, the federal government will often cooperate with the state
governments. In a sense it is like trying to bypass the chain of command, you
went to the store owner to buy a hamburger but he doesn’t work as the cook.
Federal listing would not activity manage the remaining
habitats in many cases. Again federal officials wouldn’t go onto private property
and start making demands. The owner could shoot them for trespassing in some
cases just like anyone else, and I take this extreme because I’ve seen it
mentioned before for non-government trespassers, which are no different under
these circumstances.
Listing VFT would strengthen efforts by scientific and
conservation organizations and individuals? I try to conserve other species
with my efforts. It is a brutally hard fight. I have to say you don’t know much
about what you are talking about.
To
list a species, you have to have facts and cite those facts. I applaud the
enthusiasm of the person petitioning the plants. Yet do you even know how the
federal system works? Have you looked into it? I looked at other petition on
this website. I laughed. Nothing to worry about here. I rambled on, but I will
use this to engage a discussion with my peers and maybe they can tell me what
they know. Because there is much I don’t know and could have wrong. But I am
trying to learn and I do look into the matter.
 |
| Venus flytrap behind the scenes look at the greenhouse plants of Kew Gardens. Not often available to the public and you saw it here! Fascinating! |
No comments:
Post a Comment